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Why has WFTSC call got such a bad reputation?
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To me it was an improvement over Get Ready. GR is generally too sloppy for my taste. I find WFTSC better produced...
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I thought WFTSC is sloppier in terms of song structures and definitely lyrics which are Raise-The-Pressure-level awful. Been listening to Get Ready a bit lately and have been really enjoying it, even if the recent vinyl repress is terrible
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A bad reputation with...?
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Originally Posted by: NotAMod  A bad reputation with...? Various places. Hooky for one. Fans seem a bit negative about it. Sorry for the vague reply, but we're not in a science lab, and I haven't the time to search for evidence. I think many fans will know what I mean... Edited by user 31 July 2016 16:36:36(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: M1 I thought WFTSC is sloppier in terms of song structures and definitely lyrics which are Raise-The-Pressure-level awful. Been listening to Get Ready a bit lately and have been really enjoying it, even if the recent vinyl repress is terrible The lyrics on Get Ready are mostly dreadful! Even Crystal - the big single - rhymes honey with money for the dumbest reason. I wasn't aware Raise the Pressure had a reputation for especially bad or good lyrics. However, Forbidden City are some of Sumner's best. WFTSC does have some clumsy efforts, but nothing as bad as Rock the Shack and Slow Jam... Edited by user 31 July 2016 16:32:14(UTC)
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Yes there are some sloppy songs on wftsc, like morning night and day, and jet stream. But I always thought turn, wftsc, I'll stay with you and I've got a feeling are some of best songs they have ever made. I will also say those 4 songs are better then all the songs on music complete except academic. Just music complete is a better full cd, as wftsc you may skip a few songs. Also I will says it's better then get ready. But close range is also one of the best songs they have ever made. I also love sugarcane and 60 miles an hour. They are my guilty pleasures.
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On Steven Morris's top ten cd's, I noticed the last few cd's were cd's which had bad recording sessions. I don't think he was going by songs. He was going by experiences.
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"Get Ready" sounded really fresh in 2001 with scratchy guitars upfront and an unexpected production (all the little bleeps and clever loops), WFTSC was just tired, the first time they were copying themselves (remember hearing "Krafty" for the first time and thinking of it as a dull cross between "Regret" and "All Day Long", or "I told you so" as an updated "Visit me" by Electronic) and incorporating too much of PCs AOR-rock guitar, combined with a mainstream rock/pop production. "Guilt" sounded like grandpa goes to the white powder-disco, something you always wanted New Order to avoid. The difference in vitality between "Rock the Shack" and "Working Overtime" says it all really. WFTSC was mostly lame order, despite a few good songs (Who's Joe?, the title track... and then?)
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I think I read somewhere it cost £1 million to produce which is hilarious when what you get for that expenditure is essentially some jangly guitar pop.
Me, I quite like the album even if the first few tracks all sound a bit similar and Turn, I think, is one of the best things they've ever done.
But I don't like I Told You So. I can't like I Told You So. It's bloody awful.
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Originally Posted by: NO Fan Originally Posted by: M1 I thought WFTSC is sloppier in terms of song structures and definitely lyrics which are Raise-The-Pressure-level awful. Been listening to Get Ready a bit lately and have been really enjoying it, even if the recent vinyl repress is terrible The lyrics on Get Ready are mostly dreadful! Even Crystal - the big single - rhymes honey with money for the dumbest reason. I wasn't aware Raise the Pressure had a reputation for especially bad or good lyrics. However, Forbidden City are some of Sumner's best. WFTSC does have some clumsy efforts, but nothing as bad as Rock the Shack and Slow Jam... Agree about honey / money but Forbidden City up there with his best, really? "Give me a chance / I'd show you what I could do / You're in a trance / I'm not so fond of you" Hmmm. You'd need to be on prozac to write lyrics that good ;) I listened to WFTSC at work today just to see if I was being too harsh, but honestly it's still the lyrics that jar for me. Turn, which otherwise is a cracking tune, is utter twaddle with all its high skies and long roads, hills and seas IMO.
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Originally Posted by: the_blank_from_hell ... WFTSC was just tired, the first time they were copying themselves (remember hearing "Krafty" for the first time and thinking of it as a dull cross between "Regret" and "All Day Long", or "I told you so" as an updated "Visit me" by Electronic) and incorporating too much of PCs AOR-rock guitar, combined with a mainstream rock/pop production. "Guilt" sounded like grandpa goes to the white powder-disco, something you always wanted New Order to avoid. The difference in vitality between "Rock the Shack" and "Working Overtime" says it all really.) I take your point about the comparisons and WFTSC sounding tired - and to think the Lost Sirens was meant to be another full album, if they had continued with Hook. Guilt was very 1990s Bernard Sumner. Do you like Rock the Shack, then? I can't stand RTS or Working Overtime - I wish they ended WFTSC with Turn.
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Originally Posted by: M1
Agree about honey / money but Forbidden City up there with his best, really?
"Give me a chance / I'd show you what I could do / You're in a trance / I'm not so fond of you" Hmmm. You'd need to be on prozac to write lyrics that good ;)
I listened to WFTSC at work today just to see if I was being too harsh, but honestly it's still the lyrics that jar for me. Turn, which otherwise is a cracking tune, is utter twaddle with all its high skies and long roads, hills and seas IMO.
Of course, it all depends on taste. I'm not claiming WFTSC is a great album, I think it's really average, but better than Get Ready. As for Forbidden City, I read it's about abuse in a relationship (step-father and son, if I recall), and in that context, the words make sense and become really poignant - no prozac required (apparently)   I think the opening "There's not a hope" in Bernard's deadpan tone is just brilliant... Edited by user 01 August 2016 05:01:10(UTC)
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There's a lot of crap on WFTSC i agree ( Jetstream, Dracula's Castle, Guilt Is A Useless Emotion and Working Overtime are the ones that immediately spring to mind) .Who's Joe? is a fairly strong track but has a dull and uninteresting guitar solo three quarters way through.Krafty is ok but the chorus is a bit flat.Best track on the album is the title track, great song and up there with Bernard's finest.Turn is pretty good and, like the poster above said, should have been the final song on the album. Yeah the lyrics are a bit naff but overall i like the song though like most of the album i never listen to it now.
The WFTSC era though i recall as a really great time to be a New Order fan, strangely enough.The gigs i went to around that era 2005 were an absolute scream, really good fun.There was still a bit of the old chaos and madness of old New Order still .Not so much these days when, yeah the gigs are very tight and professional, some of that old chaotic fun is gone.I think around the time of WFTSC i was just glad they were round and the gigs were fun even though the album was mostly naff.
So yeah, in summary; naff album but great gigs.
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Originally Posted by: NO Fan Originally Posted by: M1 As for Forbidden City, I read it's about abuse in a relationship (step-father and son, if I recall), and in that context, the words make sense and become really poignant - no prozac required (apparently) I think the opening "There's not a hope" in Bernard's deadpan tone is just brilliant... He decided that after writing it. He also said it was one of his most immediate tracks to write (and just 3 years to put out). If a track's good you don't need extraneous comments for it to be effective. RTP is his worst LP ever and the first of the non-essentials. Republic, Other Two and OTP were crap too but there was a perverse logic to their being crap as they represented the collapse of an era. RTP has no raison d'etre at all.
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Originally Posted by: Fotzepolitic There's a lot of crap on WFTSC i agree ( Jetstream, Dracula's Castle, Guilt Is A Useless Emotion and Working Overtime are the ones that immediately spring to mind) /quote]
That's nearly half the album. I actually like DC, not least for that bass being up in the mix after the poptastic mid 90s crap.
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It pales a bit in contrast to Get Ready, which to me is still just a great album (though the two guest appearances don't wear well.) I like every song on WFTSC, some to different degrees, but to me it just feels inconsistent -- maybe this and Lost Sirens should have been the series of EPs (an idea they batted about before settling on Music Complete.) I think it's a product of the fact they have a bunch of different producers on there. I had read when they were doing PR for the album that Hooky and Bernard said they got along great during it, which is why they decided to do two albums at once. Who knows if that's really true. Edited by user 01 August 2016 07:02:19(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Michael Monkhouse
He decided that after writing it.
That's how Bernard usually writes; it doesn't discredit him. I've wrote like this, and it works. Free association is a good method. Quote: If a track's good you don't need extraneous comments for it to be effective. True; and Forbidden City doesn't need direction when you listen to it as a song, whether you get the meaning or not. Incidently, I thought it was about abuse before I ever read Bernard confirming this. Quote:RTP is his worst LP ever and the first of the non-essentials. Republic, Other Two and OTP were crap too but there was a perverse logic to their being crap as they represented the collapse of an era. RTP has no raison d'etre at all. If you look at Bernard's career from Technique, onwards, RTP does have a raison d'etre: For me Technique flows smoothly into Electronic (album) and onto Republic. Raise the Pressure connects nicely from Republic to Twisted Tenderness, and then onto Get Ready. Now try this: Technique to Republic and onto Get Ready. That is much more choppy, especially between Republic and Get Ready, which have little common... Edited by user 01 August 2016 08:05:16(UTC)
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Hey Now, What You Doing is my fav from WFTSC, and an absolute blast to play. |
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Originally Posted by: Mike C. Hey Now, What You Doing is my fav from WFTSC, and an absolute blast to play. Agreed, one of my favourites, too...
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MC gets praised (rightly so) for being a return to form by the music press but both GR and WFTSC both got nearly universal good reviews. Just another case of re-written history.
Personally I now much prefer GR with only RTS being a track I like to skip although it's still 10 times better than working overtime.
When WFTSC originally came out I loved it but it seems to have a shorter shelf life than all of the other New Order albums and is now my least played of all their albums.
Still a few great tracks, who's Joe, Turn, Hey now...., WFTSC, Krafty
Some of the worst NO tracks as well such as Morning Night And Day, WO, I told you so,
Really average ones, the rest.
So still an ok album but IMO the worst.
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It's all relative anyway. Like a bad Game of Thrones episode, even at its worst it's still 10x better than most ;)
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GET READY: The last album made by the classic line up; Hooky said a lot of times in press that the atmosphere and the chemistry at that time were really good. You can really feel it in several strong tracks as "Crystal", "Close Range", "Primitive Notion" and "60 Miles an Hour". WFTSC: Sounds very uninspired and lazy, with poor arrangements. There were many tensions in studio, notably between Bernard and Hooky. The guitars are as proeminent as on Get Ready but the previous one was more sophisticated in the use of electronics. But Sirens' has some great songs as the title track and "Turn". Edited by user 02 August 2016 07:24:18(UTC)
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I liked GR better, seemed like a stronger album. Minus RTS. And Crystal is a classic. Don't mind the "honey/money" but wished 60mph were titled something faster. Never understood it. Like 80 or 100mph. Great song, other than the moderate speed. Adding "Brutal" would've been nice. I like that song.
WFTSC - title track and "Turn" are brilliant. ITYS, GIAUE* are good. Krafty, Jetstream are cheesy but ok. Dracula's Castle, Working Overtime are terrible and should have been part of the lost sirens that were never found. *NOs only Grammy nomination.
Also, imo, honey/money is not as bad as the "whatcha doin'" lyric that is the opening lyrics for the first 2 tracks and title of track 2. Sink or Swim also starts that way. Just seems lazy. And Barneys lyrics are too literal now, I prefer when it's more vague and open to the listener's interpretation - early days. Seemed more fragmented and dreamy. Especially on PCL.
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Originally Posted by: Emh I liked GR better, seemed like a stronger album. Minus RTS. And Crystal is a classic. Don't mind the "honey/money" but wished 60mph were titled something faster. Never understood it. Like 80 or 100mph. Great song, other than the moderate speed. Adding "Brutal" would've been nice. I like that song.
WFTSC - title track and "Turn" are brilliant. ITYS, GIAUE* are good. Krafty, Jetstream are cheesy but ok. Dracula's Castle, Working Overtime are terrible and should have been part of the lost sirens that were never found. *NOs only Grammy nomination.
Also, imo, honey/money is not as bad as the "whatcha doin'" lyric that is the opening lyrics for the first 2 tracks and title of track 2. Sink or Swim also starts that way. Just seems lazy. And Barneys lyrics are too literal now, I prefer when it's more vague and open to the listener's interpretation - early days. Seemed more fragmented and dreamy. Especially on PCL. Yes i agree Bernard's lyrics were better around the time of P,C&L .Like you said, they were so much more open to interpretation. "On a thousand islands in the sea i see a thousand people just like me" versus "Hey now watcha doin'?" ? I thin k i'll taker the former every time thankyou. Also agree 60MPH is a pretty moderate speed.Maybe just that speed fitted the lyric better. Edited by user 04 August 2016 10:34:10(UTC)
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New Order and Bernard have created something interesting nearly constantly( for 45 years,) unlike everyone else in the music business. WFTSC GR , and Republic are phenomenal enough |
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