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Hopefully someone can help - annoyingly the Ceremony entry from the Recycle blog is missing from the zip archive that was posted and I'm sure that answered what I'm about to ask Namely the differences between the original two Ceremony 12"s - in particular the different IALP mixes The two new Ceremony 12" reissues that just came out have the correct old and new versions of Ceremony as you'd expect, but they both appear to have the SAME version of IALP on them Namely the version that has a thunderclap at 5:15 and then no more loud thunderclaps after that I felt sure that the second Ceremony issue had a different mix of IALP that had no thunderclap at 5:15 but then lots of random thunderclaps going off after that until the end. I went to check my original second Ceremony 12" and guess what - I appear to have a version in the Cream/Blue sleeve with Cream/Blue labels that plays both the original Ceremony version (ie not the re-recorded version) and the version of IALP with the thunderclap at 5:15 I'm really confused. The Discogs entry for Ceremony is pretty vague and muddled and doesn't really help Anyone? Edited by user 20 March 2019 14:18:33(UTC)
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Some kind soul (Mr. 50 Pound Note, possibly) sent me the saved webpages fro the Recycle project a year or two ago.
Here is what it said about ‘Ceremony’:
“Ceremony
Factory Records FAC 33
Produced by Martin Hannett
March 1981/September 1981
Tracklisting:
1. Ceremony (1st Version)
2. In A Lonely Place (7" Edit)
3. In A Lonely Place
4. Ceremony (2nd Version)
5. In A Lonely Place (Alternate Mix)
Sourced from:
1: FAC 33 Italian 45 RPM 12" single
3: FAC 33 45 RPM UK 12" single (green sleeve, 2nd version of Ceremony on A-side)
4 and 5: current CD issue of Substance
2 edited from 3 to match B-side of FAC 33 Italy
Notes from the restorer:
Despite being spread out over the entire side of a 12" single, the Italian pressing of the original recording has loads of compression on it. I suspect this was applied at the mastering stage but I don't know.
Tracks 1 - 3 were transcribed at 33 RPM, de-clicked, and then pitch-shifted to 45 RPM in the digital domain at which point the remaining processing was done (20Hz highpass filter, convert from stereo to mid/side, noise reduction on side channel only, convert back to stereo, EQ and just a touch of limiting). The 7" edit of In A Lonely Place is nothing more than an early fade of the full-lengh first version.
Slight EQ and a touch of limiting on the tracks sourced from Substance. Nothing drastic.
New Order's first single was initially done during the brief period when the band was a trio, effectively being Joy Division minus Ian Curtis. The song itself was one originally performed by Joy Division. Soon after it's release, Gillian Gilbert joined the band, and the decision was made to re-record the song with her. This second version is much more common today, having been included on the Substance compilation. Personally, I prefer the first version, being much more upfront and having that delightful eerie sound that kicks in at around the 2-minute mark.
The original version is quite difficult to obtain these days, for it was not in print very long. Futhermore, the catalog number was not changed for the new version. The sleeve was changed, however there were still old ones left over, so these were re-used. To complicate things even more, the B-side was ever-so-slighly-remixed too, with the most notable difference being that the synthetic "thunder" noises occur at different times. So, depending when and where you got the record, it may have the first versions on both sides, the new version of side one with the old version of side two, or the new versions of both.
During the course of transcribing this single six distinct pressings/variations were identified.”
Hopefully this helps you a bit. I’ve never been 100% sure which version is what on which release,and don’t think I own either original 12”s (my vinyl is in storage). I know I own the 7”, but that won’t help you.
I have the complete archived blogposts. Let me know if you want them. The Recycle project was one of my favourite things to have ever found on the internet.
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If it's a Townhouse cut (look for TOWNHOUSE on the run-outs) then it's the original and proper final version (mixdown Take 2). This was used on both the green and the white ones from 1981 onwards.
However, there are some cuts (with no mention of TOWNHOUSE) of the white one that have the incorrect version (mixdown Take 1). My guess is that was introduced around the time of Substance on a re-cut re-pressing. Substance also used the wrong mix.
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James  If it's a Townhouse cut (look for TOWNHOUSE on the run-outs) then it's the original and proper final version (mixdown Take 2). This was used on both the green and the white ones from 1981 onwards.
However, there are some cuts (with no mention of TOWNHOUSE) of the white one that have the incorrect version (mixdown Take 1). My guess is that was introduced around the time of Substance on a re-cut re-pressing. Substance also used the wrong mix. This is ultimately the opinion we came to when assembling Recycle - that the one we titled "Alternate Mix" surfaced when Substance was being assembled, so it became more commonly known, as it was on CD. This is especially true in the U.S., where Substance was a lot of peoples' introduction to the band.
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Thanks all - this is useful, but I think the key bit of info that I'm missing is which version is (mixdown Take 1) and which is (mixdown Take 2)
My old cream/blue Factory 12" is a Townhouse cut and it has the same version as on both the new 2019 Green and Cream/Blue represses
So that means it's (mixdown Take 2) - and that was on all the original Green & C/B pressings?
So I think you're saying (mixdown Take 1) is the one that they used for Substance and any Ceremony repressings around that time?
That all kind of makes sense to me if so - and would also mean that the new 2019 represses are correct reproductions of the originals. I had always assumed that the C/B 12" had the new Ceremony and the alternate mix of IALP
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Thanks all - this is useful, but I think the key bit of info that I'm missing is which version is (mixdown Take 1) and which is (mixdown Take 2)
My old cream/blue Factory 12" is a Townhouse cut and it has the same version as on both the new 2019 Green and Cream/Blue represses
So that means it's (mixdown Take 2) - and that was on all the original Green & C/B pressings?
So I think you're saying (mixdown Take 1) is the one that they used for Substance and any Ceremony repressings around that time?
That all kind of makes sense to me if so - and would also mean that the new 2019 represses are correct reproductions of the originals. I had always assumed that the C/B 12" had the new Ceremony and the alternate mix of IALP
The easy way to tell is that the correct final mix has a thunderclap on the first note of the 6 string bass when it comes in. The slightly earlier mix has no thunderclaps on that bit.
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Thanks all - this is useful, but I think the key bit of info that I'm missing is which version is (mixdown Take 1) and which is (mixdown Take 2)
My old cream/blue Factory 12" is a Townhouse cut and it has the same version as on both the new 2019 Green and Cream/Blue represses
So that means it's (mixdown Take 2) - and that was on all the original Green & C/B pressings?
So I think you're saying (mixdown Take 1) is the one that they used for Substance and any Ceremony repressings around that time?
That all kind of makes sense to me if so - and would also mean that the new 2019 represses are correct reproductions of the originals. I had always assumed that the C/B 12" had the new Ceremony and the alternate mix of IALP
The easy way to tell is that the correct final mix has a thunderclap on the first note of the 6 string bass when it comes in. The slightly earlier mix has no thunderclaps on that bit. Yep - that's at 3:20. So that validates what I said above, except for the fact you refer to Mixdown Take 1 (no thunderclap at 3:20) as a slightly earlier" mix - but I thought people were saying it didn't come out until Substance in the late 80s? Or do you just mean "earlier" as in it was an earlier mix, but it was never actually used/released until Substance era?
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes
Yep - that's at 3:20.
So that validates what I said above, except for the fact you refer to Mixdown Take 1 (no thunderclap at 3:20) as a slightly earlier" mix - but I thought people were saying it didn't come out until Substance in the late 80s?
Or do you just mean "earlier" as in it was an earlier mix, but it was never actually used/released until Substance era?
Yes, mixed earlier in the sequence in the studio, but accidentally used much later instead of the right one.
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes
Yep - that's at 3:20.
So that validates what I said above, except for the fact you refer to Mixdown Take 1 (no thunderclap at 3:20) as a slightly earlier" mix - but I thought people were saying it didn't come out until Substance in the late 80s?
Or do you just mean "earlier" as in it was an earlier mix, but it was never actually used/released until Substance era?
Yes, mixed earlier in the sequence in the studio, but accidentally used much later instead of the right one. Cheers - actually looking at it now and Discogs doesn't list any repressings of the Ceremony 12" after 1984. Substance came out in 1987. Do we know if there is any evidence that the 1984 repressing of Ceremony had the earlier mix on it? I have the 1983 Townhouse repress and that definitely has the "correct" Mixdown 2 on it like all the originals Edited by user 21 March 2019 03:47:08(UTC)
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What fun it is to be a New Order fan, eh? Hilarious, really. I'm not being sarcastic (really??), this thread just shows how much we love 'em and their funny ways... or maybe it was Factory.
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Originally Posted by: Benj65 What fun it is to be a New Order fan, eh? Hilarious, really. I'm not being sarcastic (really??), this thread just shows how much we love 'em and their funny ways... or maybe it was Factory. Dead right - there is so much weirdness out there, almost certainly due to them not actually giving a f**k at the time (oh yeah we've got some of these new ones left over, just chuck 'em in that batch of leftover green sleeves I found at the back of the warehouse. No one will ever notice...). Little did they know that people would be obsessing over the details decades later. I'm sure Rob Gretton is up there wetting himself The next thing I notice is that the new 180g repress of Cream/Blue Ceremony doesn't reproduce the artwork at all accurately. The centre box is just white (rather than pale grey/cream) the blue stripe is loads wider and the square is much nearer the edge of the sleeve. They also omitted the red "League" diamond from the bottom corner of the back cover Edited by user 21 March 2019 04:33:30(UTC)
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Oh, that's a shame that the cover isn't right, I've only physically seen the green 12". I love the blue 12" cover (or I did, 'til I sold it). The blue/grey contrast is what made it so special. Forgotten about the diamond after all these years (sold it in 1992, so its been a while...).
Thanks for the heads up.
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Originally Posted by: Benj65 What fun it is to be a New Order fan, eh? Hilarious, really. I'm not being sarcastic (really??), this thread just shows how much we love 'em and their funny ways... or maybe it was Factory. It's one of the reason's I quickly abandoned becoming a completist/collector.
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