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Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance

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Mr Discography		#101 Posted : 16 September 2023 10:27:36(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 749 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James Originally Posted by: steinomite Being of the camp that did not think that a "Definitive Edition" box set was warranted for a "Substance" reissue, I am glad that the band decided to reissue it as a standalone release. With this being a popular title for more casual fans of New Order, I imagine this will sell rather well. Johnny James - Why wasn't a "Touched by the Hand of God" single released in conjunction with the "True Faith" and "Blue Monday 88" singles? With it having been released in 1987 and having "Substance" related B-sides on the CD single, I thought it would make more sense to reissue it with "Substance" versus "Brotherhood" or "Technique." -Mike They wanted to do BM because it's the 40th anniversary. Doing 3 now and 3 with Brotherhood also works ok, perhaps the sequencing is a bit out, but in the end that doesn't make much difference. There's a sort-of logic to this, assuming the 'Salvation' soundtrack recordings were made between 'Brotherhood' and 'Substance'. I'm guessing the 'Salvation' tracks will be on the 'Brotherhood' definitive edition bonus CD - if this includes the original 'Touched By The Hand Of God ' from the soundtrack, then an accompanying 'Touched'12" kind of makes sense. The pedant/chronologist in me does find it awkward that they're now coming out in a disjointed order, but nevertheless I'm very pleased to have something coming out so soon after the 'Low-life' set!

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Johnny James		#102 Posted : 16 September 2023 11:52:52(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Originally Posted by: Johnny James I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape. Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987? How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes? Yes, recompiled from scratch using the transfers that were done for the singles, then re-edited where we wanted to keep the original edits (ie. not The Perfect Kiss this time). We actually started doing this around 2016, so it pre-dates some of the singles, though some mastering was done recently (you have to do some mastering work on a compiled album so the tracks all sound good alongside each other).

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M1		#103 Posted : 16 September 2023 14:45:58(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Republic Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 242 Location: Adelaide Thanks: 109 times Was thanked: 307 time(s) in 242 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Murder was on the original A sides cassette. No risk of tape-stretch on my trusty iPod! I do wish this was getting a more extensive vinyl release though

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Mr Discography		#104 Posted : 16 September 2023 15:36:42(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 749 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Originally Posted by: Johnny James I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape. Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987? How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes? Yes, recompiled from scratch using the transfers that were done for the singles, then re-edited where we wanted to keep the original edits (ie. not The Perfect Kiss this time). We actually started doing this around 2016, so it pre-dates some of the singles, though some mastering was done recently (you have to do some mastering work on a compiled album so the tracks all sound good alongside each other). Gotta say how much I appreciate all this insider information about the recent remastered reissues Johnny - it's always massively fascinating. You should write a book about it all! So, I think what you're saying is, with 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt', you've taken the already remastered full-length 12" mixes, then edited them down digitally to recreate the edits that were originally on 'Substance' in 1987? If so, the purist in me is a little bit nervous the edits won't be exactly the same as in 1987 (the same reason the "Recycle" project never interested me, as it didn't feel authentic). However, I'm sure I won't notice any difference! Out of interest, how were the original Substance edits put together and mastered? I've wondered if they were edits made at the time the original tracks were recorded, but assume they were edited specifically for the 'Substance' release in 1987? Were they digitally edited in 1987 (U-Matic?) Or are there higher quality master tapes of those edits in existence? Ultimately, I'm just super happy we're getting a shiny new very of 'Substance' after all these years! Edited by user 17 September 2023 00:32:34(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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Johnny James		#105 Posted : 16 September 2023 21:23:48(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography If so, the purist in me is a little bit nervous the edits won't be exactly the same as in 1987 (the same reason the "Recycle" project never interested me, as it didn't feel authentic). However, I'm sure I won't notice any difference! Out of interest, how were the original Substance edits put together and mastered? I've wondered if they were edits made at the time the original tracks were recorded, but assume they were edited specifically for the 'Substance' release in 1987? Were they digitally edited in 1987 (U-Matic?) Or are there higher quality master tapes of those edits in exist? Ultimately, I'm just super happy we're getting a shiny new very of 'Substance' after all these years! It's always possible someone will spot something slightly different. The alternative is to use a U-Matic source for the edits, I haven't seen anything of higher quality for them as they probably were edited in that format (easier at the time than splicing tapes). The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate. Edited by user 16 September 2023 21:24:22(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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perspexorange		#106 Posted : 17 September 2023 03:49:28(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,376 Location: Salop Thanks: 504 times Was thanked: 3827 time(s) in 2375 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography There's a sort-of logic to this, assuming the 'Salvation' soundtrack recordings were made between 'Brotherhood' and 'Substance'. I'm guessing the 'Salvation' tracks will be on the 'Brotherhood' definitive edition bonus CD - if this includes the original 'Touched By The Hand Of God ' from the soundtrack, then an accompanying 'Touched'12" kind of makes sense. The pedant/chronologist in me does find it awkward that they're now coming out in a disjointed order, but nevertheless I'm very pleased to have something coming out so soon after the 'Low-life' set! I was thinking this very thing just yesterday, i.e. 'Brotherhood' Definitive Edition possibly including the 'Salvation' tracks etc. Would make total sense to release 'Touched' 12" at the same time, if this was the case. According to the timeline in Dennis Remmer's book, the 'Salvation' sessions happened around August-September 1987, i.e. about the same time that 'Substance' was released.

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GotBlueEyes		#107 Posted : 17 September 2023 08:00:52(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 25/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 339 Thanks: 152 times Was thanked: 627 time(s) in 338 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Fotz I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago. I don't think it was that long after. I bought the cassette on release from Woolworths, as I wanted all the b-sides too It was the slipcase red/blue cassette version, it lasted about a couple of weeks before the tape snapped. I took it back to Woolies to complain and get a replacement, but they didn't have any of the slipcase versions left - so they gave me a linen box version instead. This twist of fate set me off on a collecting spree for the other FAC linen boxes and pleased to say that I have then all now

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Fotz		#108 Posted : 17 September 2023 09:52:50(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 2,655 Location: Down on the farm Thanks: 676 times Was thanked: 3733 time(s) in 2656 post(s)		I'm beginning to wonder now, did i actually ever have the red/blue slipcase x2 cassette version.Maybe i didn't and i was getting mixed up with the CD which did have Murder in with the tracklist with the B sides disc.I do still have the hessian white box cassette version but had no memory of Murder being on the A sides cassette between Thieves and TPK.Memory eh? It can be a bugger!

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The Shadow		#109 Posted : 17 September 2023 10:08:37(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 30/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 412 Location: Derby Thanks: 91 times Was thanked: 581 time(s) in 412 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Really lovng the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue. Another nice idea I had would've been to accompany this 'Substance' reissue with a new 12" that had 'Temptation 87' on the A-side and 'Confusion 87' + 'Confusion Dub 1987' on the B-side. I think they were originally considering releasing 'Temptation 87' as the single to promote 'Substance' until 'True Faith' was recorded, so it would've been a playful treat to give all three 1987 re-recordings their own 12" release. One for a future Record Store Day maybe? The above would have been an excellent idea. Did like a 12” of Nothing for me \ let’s go as well
		WWW
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Mr Discography		#110 Posted : 17 September 2023 12:46:56(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 749 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate. Interesting - and sounds messy/complicated. So does that mean there are no album master tapes for Get Ready/Sirens era that are higher than 44.1kHz/16-bit? Meaning you'd have to go back to the source multitracks and edit/bounce them all down again in higher audio quality for any reissues?

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Johnny James		#111 Posted : 17 September 2023 21:16:10(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Originally Posted by: Johnny James The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate. Interesting - and sounds messy/complicated. So does that mean there are no album master tapes for Get Ready/Sirens era that are higher than 44.1kHz/16-bit? Meaning you'd have to go back to the source multitracks and edit/bounce them all down again in higher audio quality for any reissues? Both albums were done to tape originally, then were copied over to pro-tools and more work was done. This makes it difficult to go back to the studio tapes.

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depthcharge		#112 Posted : 19 September 2023 19:58:55(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Republic Groups: Registered Joined: 16/02/2013(UTC) Posts: 194 Location: Australia Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 325 time(s) in 195 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork. I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape. I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2? I have a bunch of these variants and can confirm that 'Murder' does not appear on tape #2 (side three) - as listed on both the artwork and Discogs. Just pulled out a copy and listened again to be sure. Side three jumps from 'Lonesome Tonight' to 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' and ends there. 'Murder' shows up after 'Thieves Like Us' on tape #1 as per later (corrected) cassette variants and linen box edition. Basically if you have an earlier tape version with the red+blue spines on external slipcase, the 'Murder' tracklisting is wrong. If you have a black spine version, it's been corrected. Maybe I'll now be inspired to update Discogs, in all the excitement ;)

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Johnny James		#113 Posted : 20 September 2023 23:50:32(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: depthcharge Originally Posted by: Johnny James I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork. I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape. I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2? I have a bunch of these variants and can confirm that 'Murder' does not appear on tape #2 (side three) - as listed on both the artwork and Discogs. Just pulled out a copy and listened again to be sure. Side three jumps from 'Lonesome Tonight' to 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' and ends there. 'Murder' shows up after 'Thieves Like Us' on tape #1 as per later (corrected) cassette variants and linen box edition. Basically if you have an earlier tape version with the red+blue spines on external slipcase, the 'Murder' tracklisting is wrong. If you have a black spine version, it's been corrected. Maybe I'll now be inspired to update Discogs, in all the excitement ;) That was my suspicion, Discogs does seem to have some listings that contradict that from all the variants on there. The need to get the timings to work is important, that's why I shifted TLU to side 4, it got the running times per side down a little. Apparently we're using C101 and C102 length tapes, just a little over their preferred maximum. They don't like C120 lengths these days.

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GotBlueEyes		#114 Posted : 21 September 2023 03:42:50(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 25/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 339 Thanks: 152 times Was thanked: 627 time(s) in 338 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James They don't like C120 lengths these days. Neither did my Saisho cassette player in 1987!

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Debaser		#115 Posted : 21 September 2023 15:34:43(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 03/06/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,117 Location: here n there Thanks: 526 times Was thanked: 3192 time(s) in 2139 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James The need to get the timings to work is important, that's why I shifted TLU to side 4, it got the running times per side down a little. Apparently we're using C101 and C102 length tapes, just a little over their preferred maximum. They don't like C120 lengths these days. It's a nice touch, doing a cassette version. I wonder how much of this is sentimentality and how much is about demand? I never owned the cassette. I went from the '87 vinyl to the ('99?) London CD version. I haven't ordered yet, but if I'm gonna spend money on this (and only order one format), then the 4CD is probably the most attractive option. Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Really loving the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue. What's great about the CD3 tracklist, is it feels like an authentic bonus disc that could've easily been included with a special edition way back in 1987, as every track on there is taken from one of the original 12 inch singles, or the recording sessions at the time 'Substance' came out ('Confusion Dub 1987'). So we get a remastered version of the original LP tracklist on CD1 (with full 'Perfect Kiss' and other Substance edits preserved - exactly what I desired); an exact recreation of the original CD2, then almost all other core tracks from those original 12/13 single releases included on CD3. Good stuff and can't wait for my 4 CD and coloured vinyl editions to arrive CD3 will finally cure my FOMO of not having all those tracks like Shellcock and Dub Vulture on my previous Substance purchases. This does feel like a not-strictly-necessary exercise in nostalgia. But it's difficult to resist...

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GotBlueEyes		#116 Posted : 22 September 2023 01:50:21(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 25/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 339 Thanks: 152 times Was thanked: 627 time(s) in 338 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Debaser It's a nice touch, doing a cassette version. I wonder how much of this is sentimentality and how much is about demand? I never owned the cassette. I went from the '87 vinyl to the ('99?) London CD version. It's a good question, and looking at the discogs editions it looks like there were a disproportionate number of cassette editions released, because (I assume) the demand was there to have a whole other album of b-sides They were still pressing new cassette editions post the London Records signing (1993?) I know that myself and a number of my friends all went for the cassette at the time because of the extra tracks, but given that the CD has the most content this time, I'm going to guess that they don't expect to sell that many of the new cassettes and it's just a limited edition "nice-to-have-but-never-play" thing for collectors Edited by user 22 September 2023 02:42:14(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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EmileStrunz		#117 Posted : 26 September 2023 03:39:05(UTC)
Rank: Young Offender Groups: Registered Joined: 23/08/2013(UTC) Posts: 49 Location: Leicester Thanks: 24 times Was thanked: 105 time(s) in 49 post(s)		Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t…

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Johnny James		#118 Posted : 26 September 2023 05:15:33(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: EmileStrunz Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t… Definitely there, it seemed to have been missed off one tracklist that went out, but it's there.

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Mr Discography		#119 Posted : 26 September 2023 06:56:07(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 749 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James Originally Posted by: EmileStrunz Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t… Definitely there, it seemed to have been missed off one tracklist that went out, but it's there. It's missing from the New Order Store listing too: https://store.neworder.com/gb/new-order/substance-87-4cd-expanded-edition/5054197717901.html

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steinomite		#120 Posted : 29 September 2023 07:23:47(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Village Groups: Registered Joined: 04/10/2012(UTC) Posts: 80 Location: Chicago Thanks: 4 times Was thanked: 148 time(s) in 80 post(s)		For those based in the US, Turntable Lab has a fantastic deal ($32.95) for the red/blue colored vinyl edition of "Substance" here. That's $22 cheaper than Rough Trade's price. As far as I know, RT NYC and TTL are the only retailers in the US stocking the colored vinyl edition. -Mike

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negative1		#121 Posted : 30 September 2023 10:46:34(UTC)
Rank: Member with Substance Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,184 Thanks: 926 times Was thanked: 1772 time(s) in 1186 post(s)		just for fun, made some megamixes of the tracks: heres substance megamix part 1: the perfect kiss -> blue monday works out really well of course.. later \|\|\| \| \|\| ne gative 1

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negative1		#122 Posted : 01 October 2023 16:40:46(UTC)
Rank: Member with Substance Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,184 Thanks: 926 times Was thanked: 1772 time(s) in 1186 post(s)		and now for some more interesting takes on this. so i attempted to do another megamix, this time using instrumentals of the songs (some generated), this allowed for a different version. the tracklisting is completely different some of the transitions are really cool tracklist - new order substance instrumental megamix 1 2023 thieves like us (similar to the instrumental but some changes) true faith (instrumental) bizarre love triangle (instrumental) (not the dub) state of the nation (instrumental) temptation 87 (instrumental) subculture (instrumental) shellshock (instrumental) not the dub confusion 87 (instrumental) everythings gone green (instrumental) blue monday (instrumental) the perfect kiss (instrumental) ceremony (instrumental) later \|\| \|\| \| \| \| ne gative 1 Edited by user 01 October 2023 16:41:43(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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Mr Discography		#123 Posted : 03 October 2023 09:53:54(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 749 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'?

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Johnny James		#124 Posted : 03 October 2023 12:18:15(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'? Yep.

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Mr Discography		#125 Posted : 03 October 2023 12:25:46(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 749 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'? Yep. Good to know! I know it's not being titled (or packaged) as such, but to me, my combination of coloured double vinyl and 4 x CD set really will be my "Definitive Edition" of 'Substance' - looking forward to this one! Cheers! Edited by user 03 October 2023 13:05:45(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

4 users thanked Mr Discography for this useful post.		ROCKET MICK on 03/10/2023(UTC), Like No Other on 03/10/2023(UTC), Jul on 04/10/2023(UTC), Mr. Disco on 05/10/2023(UTC)
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