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Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance
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Like No Other  
#76 Posted : 15 September 2023 11:48:13(UTC)
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I'm defo going the full monty on this release. News of this release couldn't have been timed better for me, weeks holiday in the Greek sun listening to NO, love reading everyone's comments in this forum!
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ROCKET MICK  
#77 Posted : 15 September 2023 12:02:36(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Like No Other Go to Quoted Post
I'm defo going the full monty on this release. News of this release couldn't have been timed better for me, weeks holiday in the Greek sun listening to NO, love reading everyone's comments in this forum!

Holiday in the sun..Substance abuse. Ffs sounds FantasticCool
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negative1  
#78 Posted : 15 September 2023 13:49:30(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: tapebias Go to Quoted Post
What's next apart from the Albums? Any possibilty of the FACTUS 81-82 EP expanded? All the available tracks from that period in a nice double CD package, no books or funny coloured vinyl just songs that people want to listen to. Mesh, C&W, IALP, EGG etc. £19.99. I'd buy it!


already got released as a regular (not expanded) clear vinyl 12 inch for record store day.
https://www.discogs.com/...5194-New-Order-1981-1982


UserPostedImage

but yeah, no CD re-issue, because all those tracks have been included several times
over all the deluxe ones.

maybe a digital release, which of course you can now get because of substance.

later
| || | | || | |
ne gative 1

Edited by user 15 September 2023 13:57:26(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Mr Discography  
#79 Posted : 16 September 2023 02:28:54(UTC)
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Really loving the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue.

What's great about the CD3 tracklist, is it feels like an authentic bonus disc that could've easily been included with a special edition way back in 1987, as every track on there is taken from one of the original 12 inch singles, or the recording sessions at the time 'Substance' came out ('Confusion Dub 1987').

So we get a remastered version of the original LP tracklist on CD1 (with full 'Perfect Kiss' and other Substance edits preserved - exactly what I desired); an exact recreation of the original CD2, then almost all other core tracks from those original 12/13 single releases included on CD3. Good stuff and can't wait for my 4 CD and coloured vinyl editions to arrive on 10 November, three days after my 49th birthday. Shocking to think I was 13 back when I first bought the double cassette in 1988!

The only core (i.e. non-promo) stuff missing that was released on the main 12" singles up to this time is 'Confused Beats', 'Confusion Rough Mix', and of course the non-Substance edits of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' - all of which have already come out digitally in remastered form, and wouldn't have fit on these CDs anyway. I prefer the Substance edits anyway, as they benefit from being trimmed a bit - so I can happily live without them on this compilation.

Then of course there's 'Paradise (Remix)', but this wasn't on any UK 12 inches (was Australia only if I recall) and did come out on the 'Retro' set. I'm actually surprised this isn't included on the reissued 'True Faith (Remix)' 12" and digital release, as this would've avoided repeating '1963' across that and the main 'True Faith' 12", and given us something extra that isn't on the 'Substance' reissue. A minor nitpick however. All in all, the three CDs feel like a full and comprehensive collection of those classic 12 inches.

Another nice idea I had would've been to accompany this 'Substance' reissue with a new 12" that had 'Temptation 87' on the A-side and 'Confusion 87' + 'Confusion Dub 1987' on the B-side. I think they were originally considering releasing 'Temptation 87' as the single to promote 'Substance' until 'True Faith' was recorded, so it would've been a playful treat to give all three 1987 re-recordings their own 12" release. One for a future Record Store Day maybe?

All in all, very pleased with the 4CD tracklist - so well done to all involved for listening to our thoughts in this forum and (hopefully) pleasing most of us!

Edited by user 17 September 2023 13:11:07(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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perspexorange  
#80 Posted : 16 September 2023 02:52:09(UTC)
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I echo your sentiments, Mr Discography. The track list is pretty much what I would want.


Here's something that hasn't been discussed before (I don't think; forgive me if I'm wrong), but it looks like they've fixed the Mesh/Cries & Whispers naming error on the original release.
Looking at the listing on the Store, it says for CD2:

"3) Cries And Whispers (incorrectly labelled as Mesh on original release)"

I'm glad about this.
I suppose it's obvious that they would've fixed this but, so often with these sort of things, errors just get replicated.
Good job we've got JJ on the case. If Factory was still about, I have no doubts they'd have messed it up again. Big Grin

Good old Factory. A brilliant, pioneering record company, but accuracy was never their strength.
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Fotz  
#81 Posted : 16 September 2023 03:27:52(UTC)
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On New Order store, looking at the tracklist for the cassette version, cassette 1 has 13 tracks. Couldn't work out at first why it was 13. Then noticed Murder is slipped in between Thieves Like Us and Perfect Kiss. Interesting! Imagine having the vinyl version and Murder added. It'd make sense in a way i guess as Murder was a 12" single release of course on Benelux but i never think of Substance including it as part of the collection of all their 12" singles, only as being on CD2 or the b side of the orginal cassette.

Edited by user 16 September 2023 03:31:51(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Mr Discography  
#82 Posted : 16 September 2023 03:48:59(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
On New Order store, looking at the tracklist for the cassette version, cassette 1 has 13 tracks. Couldn't work out at first why it was 13. Then noticed Murder is slipped in between Thieves Like Us and Perfect Kiss. Interesting! Imagine having the vinyl version and Murder added. It'd make sense in a way i guess as Murder was a 12" single release of course on Benelux but i never think of Substance including it as part of the collection of all their 12" singles, only as being on CD2 or the b side of the orginal cassette.

Murder was on the original A sides cassette.
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Fotz  
#83 Posted : 16 September 2023 04:06:42(UTC)
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^ Ah, I stand corrected. Had no memory of it being on the old a sides cassette. Even though i owned a copy! Think i only ever played the b sides cassette back then.
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perspexorange  
#84 Posted : 16 September 2023 04:46:12(UTC)
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Was on Discogs earlier today and was surprised to learn that, as Mr. Discography says, on the original (big white box) version of the cassette "Murder is listed as being on cassette two but it plays after "Thieves Like Us" at the end of Side A on cassette one."

The first tape I had of it (the smaller slipcase variant), it was on tape 2.

I wonder whether, originally, they intended to have it on tape 1, as it is technically an A-side.
Then they decided to relegate it to the B-side (maybe to keep the LP and tape versions in sync with track order). However, they forgot to tell the company producing the tape but did tell the sleeve printers.
Then they rectified the tape run order for later releases.

Odd.
Incidentally the 'Twelve Inches of New Order' promo ruler doesn't really work with 13 tracks. :-D
12 x 12" has a certain symmetry.

I have three variants of the tape kicking around somewhere.
The first one was given to me by a mate and was a slipcase version. One of the tapes (tape 2, I expect, given the length) chewed up on me.

I then purchased a second slipcase tape, but this was a bit different if I recall correctly. I seem to think it didn't have the colour-coding on the cassette boxes and might've had black plastic tapes as opposed to clear (or vice versa). I barely played this version, as I decided to upgrade to the CD not long after (in case similar chewing occurred). It's in pretty much mint condition because of this.

Finally, I grabbed the original big white box a couple of years later, but admit I've never played it. Hence why I didn't know about Murder being on tape A.
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perspexorange  
#85 Posted : 16 September 2023 05:01:29(UTC)
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Hmm, looks like there's a bit of variant in track order between UK cassette copies:

Big white box (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/...1330-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 1) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/...5355-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 2) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/...0947-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 3) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/...5879-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 4) (Murder on tape 2):

https://www.discogs.com/...1693-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 5 - embossed) (Murder on tape 2):

https://www.discogs.com/...2105-New-Order-Substance


Only the big white box has incorrect printing on it, which states Murder is on tape 2, but is actually on tape 1. All others are printed as per the actual running order (I think!).

Edited by user 16 September 2023 05:10:12(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Fotz  
#86 Posted : 16 September 2023 05:18:47(UTC)
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^ Ah, i guess i was thinking of variant 4 and/or 5 in that list with links you've very helpfully done there, p. Thanks!

I recall my tape having Murder in with the B sides cassette. Even though it was an A side of course! That must be what i was thinking of and it struck me as unusual to have it in with the A sides and basically making the album 12 x 13 instead of 12 x 12.

I no longer have the original cassette but i do still have white hessian box version.Haven't looked it for years let alone play it so i would've long forgotten Murder being in with the A sides of the 2 cassettes.
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perspexorange  
#87 Posted : 16 September 2023 05:29:12(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
^ Ah, i guess i was thinking of variant 4 and/or 5 in that list with links you've very helpfully done there, p. Thanks!

I recall my tape having Murder in with the B sides cassette. Even though it was an A side of course! That must be what i was thinking of and it struck me as unusual to have it in with the A sides and basically making the album 12 x 13 instead of 12 x 12.

I no longer have the original cassette but i do still have white hessian box version.Haven't looked it for years let alone play it so i would've long forgotten Murder being in with the A sides of the 2 cassettes.


Just thinking, I'm not sure of the 'release date' order of those six variants.

I imagine that the 'Murder on tape 2' versions are later variants, based on the fact that the white linen box was (presumably) an original release and has Murder on tape 1.

If that's the case, and they switched to tape 2 for later variants, one does have to question the logic of that, i.e. extending an already long cassette. It probably contributed to all the 'tape chewing' that you hear about with this release among fans.

Maybe Factory thought, 'oh well, it's only the b-sides... nobody will care if they get destroyed. Let's not jeopardise tape 1...'. Big Grin
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Fotz  
#88 Posted : 16 September 2023 05:40:00(UTC)
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I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago.
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Johnny James  
#89 Posted : 16 September 2023 05:40:39(UTC)
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I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork.

I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.

I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2?
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GotBlueEyes  
#90 Posted : 16 September 2023 05:45:29(UTC)
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Substance was my the first NO thing I bought - having heard all the singles from Blue Monday onwards

I have the linen box cassette edition and at the time, I was hotly anticipating finally getting to hear Murder, as it was the only single I'd not heard

I was expecting it to be another electro pop banger and remember being deeply confused by what seemed to be a fairly uneventful instrumental in the midst of the cassette (grown to love it though!)
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Fotz  
#91 Posted : 16 September 2023 05:57:42(UTC)
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I guess you could take the view that, say the vinyl version, Substance was "a collection of all New Order's 12" singles up to that point" why wasn't Murder on there?! It was a New Order single and it was a 12" ! Wink
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ROCKET MICK  
#92 Posted : 16 September 2023 06:00:45(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post
I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago.


Up North Woolworth got lots of them but due to the size of the boxes and their Racking most were damaged. I was already into Cds by then so never got the tapes. Wish I had but I am very fussy!

Edited by user 16 September 2023 06:01:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Fotz  
#93 Posted : 16 September 2023 06:00:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GotBlueEyes Go to Quoted Post
Substance was my the first NO thing I bought - having heard all the singles from Blue Monday onwards

I have the linen box cassette edition and at the time, I was hotly anticipating finally getting to hear Murder, as it was the only single I'd not heard

I was expecting it to be another electro pop banger and remember being deeply confused by what seemed to be a fairly uneventful instrumental in the midst of the cassette (grown to love it though!)


Crikey! I can well imagine.
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ROCKET MICK  
#94 Posted : 16 September 2023 06:07:40(UTC)
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The only good aspect of Murder was the sleeveCool
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Fotz  
#95 Posted : 16 September 2023 06:11:26(UTC)
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I remember buying the Murder 12" on release and coming home with it. The only record player in our house at that time was in the living room and frustratingly my brother had his new girlfriend round and they were in the living room. I had to politely disturb their afternoon and ask if they'd mind if i played my new vinyl purchase. At the end, my brother's girlfriend had a look on her face of what on earth was that shit??!! Though to her credit she didn't actually say that. Very diplomatic. But it was obvious from her face what she thought of it haha!

Edited by user 16 September 2023 06:15:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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perspexorange  
#96 Posted : 16 September 2023 06:32:05(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ROCKET MICK Go to Quoted Post
The only good aspect of Murder was the sleeveCool


Murder is awesome and I won't have anything bad said about it! Big Grin


Interesting what Johnny says about Murder possibly never appearing on Side 2.
I was convinced that at least one of my copies had it on tape 2, hence me being surprised by reading today of it being on tape 1 on other copies.
I have a distinct memory of, when I first got into the band, reading an article or book which listed Murder as a single and thinking to myself, 'wonder why it's on the b-sides tape of Substance'.

However, I admit that my memory is quite often flawed.


Hmmm - my tapes are at my mum's and I *think* she has a tape player.
Now I need to mull over whether or not it's worth, in the interests of research, to risk my tape getting mangled.

If it does mangle, I'm going to blame JJ and insist that he grants me one week's access to the JD/NO archives as compensation. Big Grin

Edited by user 16 September 2023 06:33:11(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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aysie  
#97 Posted : 16 September 2023 07:07:46(UTC)
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While we're about it, I never quite understood why the mighty Procession was "demoted" to the B-sides disc on Substance; wasn't Fac 53 a double-A-sided single?(Obviously EGG is magnificent.)

EDIT - just realised, there's not a 12" version of Procession, that's it, duh.

Edited by user 16 September 2023 07:09:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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ROCKET MICK  
#98 Posted : 16 September 2023 07:43:55(UTC)
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I haven't bought anything since Be a Rebel but time to buy again. Maybe 4 x Cd to begin with..no T Shirt will fit!
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Mr Discography  
#99 Posted : 16 September 2023 09:17:22(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Johnny James Go to Quoted Post
I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.

Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987?

How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes?

Edited by user 16 September 2023 09:17:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Mr Discography  
#100 Posted : 16 September 2023 09:22:42(UTC)
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Interested to see if the audio glitch present in (as far as I remember) every release and remaster of the 'True Faith' 12" version is finally removed in this version of 'Substance' - in the first chorus when Barney sings "I'd see the light", the glitch always makes it sound like he's singing "I'd stee the light". The glitch was never present on the 7" edit.
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