I've mulled over the 'Substance 1987 puzzle' a few times, and still don't really know what I'd personally want from a Definitive edition.

There's certainly a part of me that would like to keep it as close to the original as possible (although I'd certainly agree that The Perfect Kiss should be restored to its full glory).

However, there's a part of me that thinks that this is a good excuse to release the LP as it was (presumably) originally envisioned, i.e. a complete record of all their 12"s, plus b-sides, without any track being edited. Therefore, Hurt, The Perfect Kiss, Sub-Culture and Shellshock would all be their original length (I will admit though that Sub-Culture and Shellshock do 'go on a bit').

I've also toyed with the idea in my head that I'd like to see the original 12"s of Temptation and Confusion as bonus tracks, and also, perhaps, some other mixes that weren't included originally; the original Ceremony, Confused Beats and Rough Mix, The Perfect Pit, the Paradise remix, Evil Dust, True Faith Remix and Dub, Confusion Dub '87 etc.

Difficult decision.


Thanks for answering these questions, Johnny.
Could I possibly just quiz you briefly about the following:

1) Just curious about the three Blue Monday variants. It seems incredible that we have early versions of this seminal track. The story always goes that the original Blue Monday was accidentally wiped by either Bernard or Steve (I think they blame the other!). Do you know if the versions included pre-date this incident? What can we expect from these? I really cannot wait to hear these.

2) As regards 'Confusion' on 'Countdown', do you know whether this was ever transmitted on TV? I have a note that it was transmitted on radio, on Veronica's sister station. Also, was consideration given to include 'Blue Monday' and the interview from the same session?

Thanks.

The way I see it, 'Substance' CD1 (or tape - love it both with and without 'Murder') is my all time favourite album that has accompanied me since the age of 13. If a 'Definitive Edition' CD1 differs any more than restoring 'The Perfect Kiss' to its unedited form, and maybe squeezing in 'Murder', I'll find myself continuing to play the original CD in all its tinny glory!

Am more flexible regarding padding out a CD2 and CD3 with a few more dubs and B-sides, but wouldn't want it to deviate massively from the original B-sides tape/CD (with more than one version of the same track, etc. for example) or it'll become a tiresome continuous listen. Save the other dub/mix variations and edits for a CD4 "bonus disc". Also, perhaps 'Murder' would be better placed on CD2 given there'll be more space on discs 2 and 3 - and it never appeared on the original LP or CD.

One other question Johnny. Has thought been given to where the studio album 'Definitive Editions' will end? Are they just doing Factory albums, or including 'Republic' and later releases?

Thanks for all the juicy info, by the way - fascinating and much appreciated!

I'd just like to say Yes to all of this.
Ok, bye.

Wow! They sound absolutely brilliant! I'm even more excited to hear these now. Especially that first one. Incredible.



Thanks for this. I've often suspected that it was never transmitted.
I actually have a clip of the third take. I think it was shown on a later edition of 'Countdown' (presumably 3-4 weeks later). It has a brief introduction by the same host where he says something along the lines of 'bands can play live in our studio, like New Order did recently'.
Then there's a clip of about a minute's worth of Blue Monday. It certainly looks like it's a different take from both the available versions (including the 'false start'). At the very least it's a different vision mix, as there are different camera angles.

I fully appreciate the logic for not including the well-known 'Blue Monday' on 'Countdown' footage. Much better to include the unseen 'Confusion' footage. This is one of my most anticipated bits of the box set.

As an aside, I've always been a little unsure of the timeline for 'Confusion'.
I always thought that the 'Countdown' performance was recorded on 27/05/83, which is quite an early outing for the track (I guess this is after the first live performance on 11/04/83, though).

I'm just wondering then, when Arthur Baker came on the scene. I'd have thought that he presumably first wanted to work with the band after hearing 'Blue Monday', following its release in March '83.
That would signify that Baker was quite 'late to the party', as regards 'Confusion'.
And that doesn't seem quite right, as I've always kind of assumed that he was fairly well involved from its inception.

I think I'm presuming far too much. Maybe the band met up with Baker prior to the release of 'Blue Monday'.

I think they probably went over to New York in early 83, Feb March? The track was done completely over there with Arthur, as far as I know. Thieves Like Us was more of a jam over an 808 at that point (as you'll hear in October).

Substance absolutely need its own box.

Preserve the original as much as possible, add two CDs to collect all the B-sides and dubs, etc. Include a 7" of Procession in one of 4 random colors (red, blue, green, yellow) on heavyweight color vinyl to match.

Going forward, the Salvation tracks, TBTHOG, Blue Monday 1988, and World In Motion should be in the Technique box. Each subsequent box would have its remixes added.

Edited by user 06 August 2020 10:49:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

A thought on the 'Confusion' 12" reissue. Interesting to note that 'Confusion' segues directly into 'Confusion Beats' on the 12" - hopefully this will be preserved on the digital version. The CD re-releases of 'Confusion' 12" mix so far all have a fairly quick fade just before where this gapless transition begins on the vinyl.

It's the other way round. They used analogue gear to record 'Confusion' - in the case of 'Confusion' most likely Arthur Baker's gear. When played live, I think they reprogrammed and shortened the song using their own equipment.

At the time 'Substance' came out they said they wanted to re-record it (and 'Temptation') to sound more like how the live versions sound, so these live arrangements came after the studio versions were recorded.

In the case of 'Confusion', on the 'Substance' re-record, interestingly, the key was changed from D minor to A flat minor - I guess to suit Barney's vocal range better.

Oh, so the Baker version came first? Interesting.Thanks for that.The live version was always incredible so hats off to the band for completely, well, reamagining ( that's quite a 21st century word so think i'll utilise it in thia instance) it from the original Baker version.It's so different from thee Baker version, shows what talent they had/have for coming up with their own vision of a song.Genius.

Have'nt ordered yet.What i usually do , as with the case of ordering the Doves upcoming new album box set, is to wait til the moment comes when i'm half pissed after a few wines and i get a lightbulb moment and take the plunge and click buy haha! Oh and i also clicked on ordering Lana Del Rey's new poetry readings album due out in early October.That was also after a few wines.I know, i know, don't hate on me for buying new Lana stuff

Edited by user 06 August 2020 10:59:25(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Wonderful to see the positive effect this release announcement has had on this forum. It's been so sleepy here recently, apart from those sporadic random and pointless Spice Girls posts. I've found out more useful and interesting stuff in a day than I have in the last year, I reckon. It's rejuvenated us! Great stuff!

Yep.
I think it also helps that this is such a magnificent LP and that we've been waiting for this one for a lonnnng time. 'Movement' is great, but 'PC&L' is always going to be the LP that generates the most interest.

Although 'Technique' is marginally my favourite LP over this one, if I had to say which was the band's masterpiece, it would always be 'Power, Corruption & Lies'.

Edited by user 06 August 2020 11:25:30(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Kilkenny is great and I'm thrilled that we'll get to see it.
Actually listening to it now. Fab stuff. Chaotically brilliant.


Still can't believe we are getting three complete gigs. The classic Kilkenny and two in New Order's own back yard.
Fantastic.