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Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L

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Mr. Disco		#501 Posted : 25 November 2020 07:56:41(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Republic Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 240 Location: Brazil Thanks: 1443 times Was thanked: 504 time(s) in 240 post(s)		Finally here...
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Andy		#502 Posted : 25 November 2020 08:18:36(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,218 Location: Seaside, California Thanks: 1652 times Was thanked: 3329 time(s) in 2236 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Finally here... Enjoy!
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perspexorange		#503 Posted : 25 November 2020 08:19:13(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,375 Location: Salop Thanks: 503 times Was thanked: 3821 time(s) in 2373 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr. Disco Finally here... Enjoy! It's awesome...

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Fotz		#504 Posted : 13 February 2021 16:26:23(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 2,655 Location: Down on the farm Thanks: 676 times Was thanked: 3733 time(s) in 2656 post(s)		Wow, hearing a lot of guitar detail i'd never picked up on before on Lonesome Tonight on the remastered Thieves Like Us 12" .Bought a pair of Sony WH-1000XM3 headphones recently (and £240 lighter for it no less, ouch.Had to buy some top of the range noise cancelling headphones though to cancel out noisy neighbours) and playing the remastered Lonesome Tonight on a Pro-Ject Essential 2 turntable with an Ortofon OM20 stylus through a Cambridge Audio Alva Duo pre-amp on the new headphones the sound is very, VERY detailed and crystal clear.Crikey, there's so much guitar detail on the remastered version i'd never heard in 36+ years.Also hearing one or two things on the remastered Confusion 12" i'd never picked up on before. On the remastered Blue Monday 12" on the new headphones, Bernard's vocal sounds ever so slightly teeny weeny bit to the left.Not massively so but enough to notice.Definitely not the settings on the headphones or anything else as all other tracks i play the vocal is dead centre.Anybody else finding or noticing that? Edited by user 13 February 2021 16:48:48(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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negative1		#505 Posted : 13 February 2021 18:38:59(UTC)
Rank: Member with Substance Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,184 Thanks: 920 times Was thanked: 1772 time(s) in 1186 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Fotz Wow, hearing a lot of guitar detail i'd never picked up on before on Lonesome Tonight on the remastered Thieves Like Us 12" .Bought a pair of Sony WH-1000XM3 headphones recently (and £240 lighter for it no less, ouch.Had to buy some top of the range noise cancelling headphones though to cancel out noisy neighbours) and playing the remastered Lonesome Tonight on a Pro-Ject Essential 2 turntable with an Ortofon OM20 stylus through a Cambridge Audio Alva Duo pre-amp on the new headphones the sound is very, VERY detailed and crystal clear.Crikey, there's so much guitar detail on the remastered version i'd never heard in 36+ years.Also hearing one or two things on the remastered Confusion 12" i'd never picked up on before. On the remastered Blue Monday 12" on the new headphones, Bernard's vocal sounds ever so slightly teeny weeny bit to the left.Not massively so but enough to notice.Definitely not the settings on the headphones or anything else as all other tracks i play the vocal is dead centre.Anybody else finding or noticing that? i plan on getting on the remastered 12 inches for this, and the other 4 too all in one go someday. do the digital downloads have the same issue? if someone looks at the waveforms, they could see if there is some panning going on with the vocals. if and when i ever get them, i could check. later -1

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Fotz		#506 Posted : 14 February 2021 10:09:33(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 2,655 Location: Down on the farm Thanks: 676 times Was thanked: 3733 time(s) in 2656 post(s)		^ May try and do a vinyl rip when get time of the Blue Monday remastered 12” and send it to you , negzy , see if you can confirm with your waveform palavahh if the vocal is indeed slightly to the left channel. Haven’t tried the comparing the digital version yet

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Fotz		#507 Posted : 20 February 2021 08:31:11(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 2,655 Location: Down on the farm Thanks: 676 times Was thanked: 3733 time(s) in 2656 post(s)		Originally Posted by: negative1 Originally Posted by: Fotz On the remastered Blue Monday 12" on the new headphones, Bernard's vocal sounds ever so slightly teeny weeny bit to the left.Not massively so but enough to notice.Definitely not the settings on the headphones or anything else as all other tracks i play the vocal is dead centre.Anybody else finding or noticing that? i plan on getting on the remastered 12 inches for this, and the other 4 too all in one go someday. do the digital downloads have the same issue? if someone looks at the waveforms, they could see if there is some panning going on with the vocals. if and when i ever get them, i could check. later -1 Occurred to me today it could be another issue and not an issue with the 2020 remaster. On the back of my pre-amp there's a knob for panelling the volume to the left or to the right as the listener requires depending on where they are sitting in relation to the speakers.So i first checked that hadn't been nudged by me at some point.It hadn't and was dead centre , you can feel it slot in when you turn it to the dead centre.So it wasn't that.Next i wondered if there was an issue with the stylus and/or cartridge on my turntable.Checked all the micro connections into the back of the cartridge and they were all in tight. I played the digital version of BM 2020 remaster on Amazon Music and there was maybe a very slight emphasis of the vocal to the left channel but very hard to say for definite, certainly not as clear as on the vinyl.But when i played BM on the 2005 singles CD the vocal is dead centre, no problems whatsoever.I don't know what to conclude.I can rip the vinyl of my 2020 remastered BM and send it to you to see if your waveform stuff can confirm or dispel any problem.Though my vinyl capture software is quite primitive and any issue may not show up in your waveform software? I'd be really interested to solve this mystery.If nothing else but to see if there's a problem with my turntable (though not finding an issue with other vinyl) or pre amp or even my ears. Edit: oh hang on, if there is an issue with my stylus and/or cartridge or something else and not the BM remaster, the vinyl capture will just record the sound it recieves.With a vinyl capture you may pick up that the vocal is to the left but it wouldn't be conclusive if the problem is with the remaster or my equipment.Bugger. Edit 2: Unless, unless... i ripped 2 different records?? If i also ripped say, my original 12" of Blue Monday too.If the left channel emphasis showed up on the 2020 remaster but not on the original then you could conclude the fault is with the remaster not my equipment? Edited by user 20 February 2021 09:09:25(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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Mr. Disco		#508 Posted : 20 February 2021 09:46:47(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Republic Groups: Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 240 Location: Brazil Thanks: 1443 times Was thanked: 504 time(s) in 240 post(s)		Haven't played the box set myself, only the digital download and got both DVDs ripped to a hard drive, but people seem to be noticing some other audio (and graphic) issues on Discogs: https://www.discogs.com/...nd-Lies/reviews#c1628893 Edited by user 20 February 2021 09:48:07(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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Mr Discography		#509 Posted : 20 February 2021 14:34:30(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 747 time(s) in 391 post(s)		I thought I noticed a slight slowing of Your Silent Face on the CD too (starts to sound a touch flat before the fade out) - not sure if also present on the vinyl though. Was it always there even in '83? Guess it's always a risk with this remastering business - a couple of the Pet Shop Boys Further Listenings have slightly different versions of tracks. Guess the ultimate "definitives" of the main albums will always be those first released!

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Fotz		#510 Posted : 20 February 2021 23:29:22(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 2,655 Location: Down on the farm Thanks: 676 times Was thanked: 3733 time(s) in 2656 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography I thought I noticed a slight slowing of Your Silent Face on the CD too (starts to sound a touch flat before the fade out) - not sure if also present on the vinyl though. Was it always there even in '83? Gave YSF on the CD a spin . Doesn’t appear to slow down towards the end on my copy, or at least not that I could tell. Still, weird that other people are reporting that it does . A strange one, that.

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Jonathan		#511 Posted : 22 February 2021 01:38:13(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Republic Groups: Registered Joined: 24/07/2013(UTC) Posts: 123 Location: Tynemouth Thanks: 37 times Was thanked: 148 time(s) in 123 post(s)		I finally bought this (alcohol was involved). The box is nice. The book looks lovely. I've listened to side A of the record and it sounds different to my recollection of the original pressing — which I listen to regularly. I think it's an improvement, especially "We all Stand", which is my least favourite track, I heard stuff I hadn't noticed before. Also on 586 (the other track I don't care for that much). Haven't listened closely to side B yet, but I didn't notice any slow down for YSF (I was in the room next door at the time though). The DVDs… well, they're packed tightly aren't they? I noticed some bending of the cardboard for DVD 1 when I first got it out of the box, from whoever put the insert in I guess. And I can see why: as I'm writing this I still haven't managed to prise the damn disc out! Edit: hang on did someone say something about a download code? Where is that hidden? Edited by user 22 February 2021 03:23:33(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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Fotz		#512 Posted : 22 February 2021 03:34:27(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 2,655 Location: Down on the farm Thanks: 676 times Was thanked: 3733 time(s) in 2656 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Jonathan I finally The DVDs… well, they're packed tightly aren't they? I noticed some bending of the cardboard for DVD 1 when I first got it out of the box, from whoever put the insert in I guess. And I can see why: as I'm writing this I still haven't managed to prise the damn disc out! Edit: hang on did someone say something about a download code? Where is that hidden? Instead of trying to pull the inner case of the DVD out , turn it upside down and shake it out. There were no download codes .

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Like No Other		#513 Posted : 21 March 2021 11:16:45(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Village Groups: Registered Joined: 27/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 55 Location: Beverley Thanks: 805 times Was thanked: 115 time(s) in 55 post(s)		Boxset down to £78 on Amazon UK for anyone who hasn't got it yet - lowest price I've seen it.

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NotAMod		#514 Posted : 14 August 2022 13:22:34(UTC)
Rank: Moderator Groups: Moderators, Administrators, Registered Joined: 24/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 670 Location: London, UK Thanks: 179 times Was thanked: 1100 time(s) in 672 post(s)		I can't recall if this was covered back in the day when the PC&L box first came out (likely not, as it's audio geekery). I've noticed the following tracks on the first DVD are highly likely mastered in mono as opposed to stereo, specifically: Blue Monday (BBC Top Of The Pops, London 1983) 3:57 Confusion (Countdown 1983) 5:01 Age Of Consent (Switch 1983) 4:35 Blue Monday (Switch 1983) 5:23 Thieves Like Us (BBC Top Of The Pops 1984) 3:25 Your Silent Face (The Hacienda, Manchester) 6:47 5 8 6 (The Hacienda, Manchester) 6:25 + possibly the rest of the 'Extras' stuff...? Can anyone 'in the know' (JJ?) possibly confirm this? Cheers.

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Johnny James		#515 Posted : 14 August 2022 21:14:00(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: NotAMod I can't recall if this was covered back in the day when the PC&L box first came out (likely not, as it's audio geekery). I've noticed the following tracks on the first DVD are highly likely mastered in mono as opposed to stereo, specifically: Blue Monday (BBC Top Of The Pops, London 1983) 3:57 Confusion (Countdown 1983) 5:01 Age Of Consent (Switch 1983) 4:35 Blue Monday (Switch 1983) 5:23 Thieves Like Us (BBC Top Of The Pops 1984) 3:25 Your Silent Face (The Hacienda, Manchester) 6:47 5 8 6 (The Hacienda, Manchester) 6:25 + possibly the rest of the 'Extras' stuff...? Can anyone 'in the know' (JJ?) possibly confirm this? Cheers. Just checked and yes, they were supplied mono, Minneapolis too. The rest are stereo. Edited by user 14 August 2022 21:33:24(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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perspexorange		#516 Posted : 09 October 2022 03:51:13(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,375 Location: Salop Thanks: 503 times Was thanked: 3821 time(s) in 2373 post(s)		It looks like the official 'Countdown' YouTube channel have finally posted the band's appearance on the show performing 'Confusion'. This is exactly the same version as the one that appears on the 'PC&L' boxset. I was hoping they'd post the 'second take' of this instead (which I think is the version that was broadcast on the radio, not TV). A few months back they posted the elusive 'third take' of 'Blue Monday', so they do have form. Johnny James - is the second take of 'Confusion' in the archives? If so, is it any good? Presumably you picked the best version for the box set.

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Johnny James		#517 Posted : 09 October 2022 11:41:11(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		The other take is very similar, I think there were aspects of it I preferred (marginally better camerawork I think), but overall we used the one that was better.

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perspexorange		#518 Posted : 09 October 2022 12:26:25(UTC)
Rank: Dead Soul Groups: Registered Joined: 20/10/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,375 Location: Salop Thanks: 503 times Was thanked: 3821 time(s) in 2373 post(s)		Thanks JJ! Would be great to see it. Maybe that ‘Countdown’ channel might post it at some point.

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Mr Discography		#519 Posted : 02 September 2023 10:25:10(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 747 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Interesting observation on the "Definitive" remastering of PC&L I read on the web. Can't remember the URL, but I just verified it by comparing versions. The '586' on the Definitive Edition is a different version. Listen at 4:53, when the "heard you" line repeats - on the original and Collectors Editions versions, you can clearly here the click of Barney about to sing "calling", making it sound like he's singing "clurred you" (which I always liked and thought was rather playful). On the Definitive Edition, it's gone, and you just hear "heard you, heard you". Very odd. I actually (and rather helpfully) prefer the Collectors Edition remaster to the Definitive, which I feel sounds slightly muddier and misses some of the lovely top end on tracks like 'Your Silent Face', but I'd love to know the reason this different '586' appears on the Definitive Edition - an alternate take that's been remastered in error, a retroactive "correction"to the original, or another technical reason to do with those old digital tapes (U-matics?) used at the time. Quite disappointed to find out the Definitive Edition isn't quite as definitive as I thought it was. Any insider info Johnny James? Edited by user 02 September 2023 13:19:47(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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Johnny James		#520 Posted : 02 September 2023 22:45:20(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Interesting observation on the "Definitive" remastering of PC&L I read on the web. Can't remember the URL, but I just verified it by comparing versions. The '586' on the Definitive Edition is a different version. Listen at 4:53, when the "heard you" line repeats - on the original and Collectors Editions versions, you can clearly here the click of Barney about to sing "calling", making it sound like he's singing "clurred you" (which I always liked and thought was rather playful). On the Definitive Edition, it's gone, and you just hear "heard you, heard you". Very odd. I actually (and rather helpfully) prefer the Collectors Edition remaster to the Definitive, which I feel sounds slightly muddier and misses some of the lovely top end on tracks like 'Your Silent Face', but I'd love to know the reason this different '586' appears on the Definitive Edition - an alternate take that's been remastered in error, a retroactive "correction"to the original, or another technical reason to do with those old digital tapes (U-matics?) used at the time. Quite disappointed to find out the Definitive Edition isn't quite as definitive as I thought it was. Any insider info Johnny James? It is a new edit of the album. The album was originally recorded and mixed in the studio onto both analogue and digital formats (U-Matics). The final edits of the album were done and mastered digitally onto U-Matics (16bit 44.1kHz). We wanted to use the analogue studio tapes this time, transferred at high resolution, but it would mean that we'd need to recreate all the sequencing and editing as the album hadn't been compiled from the analogue sources previously. We got Michael Johnson to put it all together as he had done originally. Regarding 586, he produced two versions, one with the original click on that edit, and one without. I'm fairly sure we used the click one on the vinyl and the smoother one on the CD/digital. The point of all this was to create (for the first time) a new master at high resolution as all previous versions were taken from either U-Matics or tapes derived from U-Matics.

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Mr Discography		#521 Posted : 03 September 2023 00:29:39(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 747 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James It is a new edit of the album. The album was originally recorded and mixed in the studio onto both analogue and digital formats (U-Matics). The final edits of the album were done and mastered digitally onto U-Matics (16bit 44.1kHz). We wanted to use the analogue studio tapes this time, transferred at high resolution, but it would mean that we'd need to recreate all the sequencing and editing as the album hadn't been compiled from the analogue sources previously. We got Michael Johnson to put it all together as he had done originally. Regarding 586, he produced two versions, one with the original click on that edit, and one without. I'm fairly sure we used the click one on the vinyl and the smoother one on the CD/digital. The point of all this was to create (for the first time) a new master at high resolution as all previous versions were taken from either U-Matics or tapes derived from U-Matics. Interesting. Thanks for the info Johnny. What led to the decision to have the smoother edit on the CD (and, presumably digital)? Is it the way the band originally wanted it to sound - but couldn't achieve - back in 1983? Obviously, the "danger, danger" part of '586' was also a recreated edit, and I always thought I heard an edit in 'Your Silent Face' just where the vocals come in. Which parts of other tracks needed the original edits reproduced for the Definitive Edition? Edited by user 03 September 2023 00:30:20(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified

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Johnny James		#522 Posted : 03 September 2023 05:38:53(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography What led to the decision to have the smoother edit on the CD (and, presumably digital)? Is it the way the band originally wanted it to sound - but couldn't achieve - back in 1983? Obviously, the "danger, danger" part of '586' was also a recreated edit, and I always thought I heard an edit in 'Your Silent Face' just where the vocals come in. Which parts of other tracks needed the original edits reproduced for the Definitive Edition? It was mostly 586 that needed edits, those two repeated sections, plus the intro section needed grafting on (it was recorded as a separate piece). The Beach was a composite edit too (part of the same set of recordings), there were some extra edit sections that needed inserting. Murder needed a trim at the start. I don't think there was much else from that Britannia Row set that needed editing. I think when you revisit old edits it's tempting to try and improve things. The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

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Mr Discography		#523 Posted : 16 September 2023 09:42:07(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 747 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore. Johnny, what other New Order releases used U-Matics? You mention it being used for the 'Substance' masters, so was it also used for 'Brotherhood' and related tracks?

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Johnny James		#524 Posted : 16 September 2023 11:56:09(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 450 Location: UK Was thanked: 1036 time(s) in 450 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Originally Posted by: Johnny James The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore. Johnny, what other New Order releases used U-Matics? You mention it being used for the 'Substance' masters, so was it also used for 'Brotherhood' and related tracks? There are a lot of tapes for Brotherhood, so I'm not sure there was a digital stage. There will have been for the CDs. Vinyl was usually cut from EQ'd analogue production master reels, though what you can't be sure of is were they put through a digital stage first.

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Mr Discography		#525 Posted : 16 September 2023 15:23:15(UTC)
Rank: Member of the Brotherhood Groups: Registered Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 390 Thanks: 11 times Was thanked: 747 time(s) in 391 post(s)		Originally Posted by: Johnny James Originally Posted by: Mr Discography Originally Posted by: Johnny James The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore. Johnny, what other New Order releases used U-Matics? You mention it being used for the 'Substance' masters, so was it also used for 'Brotherhood' and related tracks? There are a lot of tapes for Brotherhood, so I'm not sure there was a digital stage. There will have been for the CDs. Vinyl was usually cut from EQ'd analogue production master reels, though what you can't be sure of is were they put through a digital stage first. So it sounds like there were no other U-Matic edits/comps of different takes of dub mixes of tracks like there were with 'The Beach' and 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' then?

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